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Problem: Upmix Stereo Signal to play on all speakers of a 5.1 system
#1
Hi,
I've searched quite a while, but found no solution - so I'm unsure whether I'm just blind or if there is no possibility yet. (So either need support or a feature request..)

My problem: I'm using a 5.1 Audio card (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi USB) and a corresponding speaker set. Installing it worked like a charm and out of the box, however, since the system is a 5.1 system, audio is only played on three speaker (left+right and bass) but I would love to have stereo sound automatically upmixed so that it plays on all 6 speakers at the same time.
It seems that there is no corresponding function in Moode audio, at least I haven't found one. A solution would be to manually edit the ALSA configuration, however I don't think that this is a good idea and would definitivly prefer to have an "integrated" solution. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Michael

PS.: Here is a link to the automatically up-mixing with ALSA, just for completeness. I haven't tested them yet.
https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/ALSA_upmixing
https://lichtmetzger.de/2014/04/22/bette...-asoundrc/ (german)
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=79820
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#2
Generally you have features like this built-in to AV receivers and sound processors but to be honest it sounds bad in a normal room.
Having speaker pairs firing identical output towards each other ruins the timing & soundstage. Upmixing is only useful for large rooms that are full of people without overpowering one side/end of the room.
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#3
SQ aside, the bigger challenge from a development priority point of view is how much demand is there for such a feature.
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#4
(02-03-2020, 08:32 PM)MichelGauss Wrote: ........snip................... My problem: I'm using a 5.1 Audio card (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi USB) and a corresponding speaker set. Installing it worked like a charm and out of the box, however, since the system is a 5.1 system, audio is only played on three speaker (left+right and bass) but I would love to have stereo sound automatically upmixed so that it plays on all 6 speakers at the same time.
It seems that there is no corresponding function in Moode audio, at least I haven't found one. A solution would be to manually edit the ALSA configuration, however I don't think that this is a good idea and would definitivly prefer to have an "integrated" solution. Any ideas? ...........snip...........................

Honestly I'm not sure that this is a 'problem' as there's no point of playing 'stereo sound' through a 5.1 speaker system without detracting from the quality of the sound... the 'timing and soundstage' mentioned by @vinn will be affected by the audio waves cancelling each other in the middle area of the speaker set-up. The sound would need to be 'edited' hence waving 'goodbye' to the conception of 'bitperfect playback'... IMHO
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#5
Quick & Dirty for testing: Y-cable (may be adaptor needed) from L/R Out (Soundcard) => L/R IN & REAR IN (Speakersystem)?

Regards
Norbert
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#6
(02-04-2020, 06:58 AM)CallMeMike Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 08:32 PM)MichelGauss Wrote: ........snip................... My problem: I'm using a 5.1 Audio card (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi USB) and a corresponding speaker set. Installing it worked like a charm and out of the box, however, since the system is a 5.1 system, audio is only played on three speaker (left+right and bass) but I would love to have stereo sound automatically upmixed so that it plays on all 6 speakers at the same time.
It seems that there is no corresponding function in Moode audio, at least I haven't found one. A solution would be to manually edit the ALSA configuration, however I don't think that this is a good idea and would definitivly prefer to have an "integrated" solution. Any ideas? ...........snip...........................

Honestly I'm not sure that this is a 'problem' as there's no point of playing 'stereo sound' through a 5.1 speaker system without detracting from the quality of the sound... the 'timing and soundstage' mentioned by @vinn will be affected by the audio waves cancelling each other in the middle area of the speaker set-up. The sound would need to be 'edited' hence waving 'goodbye' to the conception of 'bitperfect playback'... IMHO

Thanks for telling me that my problem isn't a problem at all. Cool 

I appreciate the discussions in this forum, and I understand that some people don't want upmixing due to possible inferences etc. And I understand that from the point of view of some people doing something like upmixing is really really bad and should not be added to moode. Ok, discuss that. I can live with an answer like: "we won't include it, due to missunderstandings/complains for bad audio etc..." or not enough demand.

However, what really offended me here is the fact that I'm asking a questions on HOW TO do something. Telling me then, that I do not need to do something becasue you won't do it and that there are "no reasons to do it", is at least impolite. I asked for it, so you might assume that I have a reason for it. Especially in an area like audio and music that is highly subjective. In fact, I had it already using it with the same hardware, same room, but different software.

Back to less emotional reasons, here is one of my reasons for upmixing: My daughter using the system to listen to stories, however she don't want to sit a specific area in the room. So when she's further away from the two "working" speakers, she needs the volume higher to be able to understand what the people are saying. However, that is not always compatible with the other people in the room....
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#7
(02-04-2020, 10:47 AM)Norbert Wrote: Quick & Dirty for testing: Y-cable (may be adaptor needed) from L/R Out (Soundcard) => L/R IN & REAR IN (Speakersystem)?

Regards
Norbert

Thanks for the idea. But I would have to by the Y-cable for cinch first, so I think will try a "dirty" software trick first by manually chaning the alsa config.

Best,
Michael
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#8
(02-03-2020, 11:46 PM)Tim Curtis Wrote: SQ aside, the bigger challenge from a development priority point of view is how much demand is there for such a feature.

Agree with that. I'll test it with a dirty hack, I just wanted to make sure that I'm not missing an already existing feature.

However, obviously from my side there is a demand ;-)
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#9
(02-07-2020, 10:36 AM)MichelGauss Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 06:58 AM)CallMeMike Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 08:32 PM)MichelGauss Wrote: ........snip................... My problem: I'm using a 5.1 Audio card (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi USB) and a corresponding speaker set. Installing it worked like a charm and out of the box, however, since the system is a 5.1 system, audio is only played on three speaker (left+right and bass) but I would love to have stereo sound automatically upmixed so that it plays on all 6 speakers at the same time.
It seems that there is no corresponding function in Moode audio, at least I haven't found one. A solution would be to manually edit the ALSA configuration, however I don't think that this is a good idea and would definitivly prefer to have an "integrated" solution. Any ideas? ...........snip...........................

Honestly I'm not sure that this is a 'problem' as there's no point of playing 'stereo sound' through a 5.1 speaker system without detracting from the quality of the sound... the 'timing and soundstage' mentioned by @vinn will be affected by the audio waves cancelling each other in the middle area of the speaker set-up. The sound would need to be 'edited' hence waving 'goodbye' to the conception of 'bitperfect playback'... IMHO

Thanks for telling me that my problem isn't a problem at all. Cool 

I appreciate the discussions in this forum, and I understand that some people don't want upmixing due to possible inferences etc. And I understand that from the point of view of some people doing something like upmixing is really really bad and should not be added to moode. Ok, discuss that. I can live with an answer like: "we won't include it, due to missunderstandings/complains for bad audio etc..." or not enough demand.

However, what really offended me here is the fact that I'm asking a questions on HOW TO do something. Telling me then, that I do not need to do something becasue you won't do it and that there are "no reasons to do it", is at least impolite. I asked for it, so you might assume that I have a reason for it. Especially in an area like audio and music that is highly subjective.  In fact, I had it already using it with the same hardware, same room, but different software.

Back to less emotional reasons, here is one of my reasons for upmixing: My daughter using the system to listen to stories, however she don't want to sit a specific area in the room. So when she's further away from the two "working" speakers, she needs the volume higher to be able to understand what the people are saying. However, that is not always compatible with the other people in the room....

I am sincerely sorry for causing offence to you...

As you have not explained why you would want to implement a method that may affect adversely the audio quality of the player I've elaborated on @vinnn advice with the intention of pointing out the negatives. The way I've formulated my post stayed away from 'emotional', hollow content, riding a high horse or belittling the other posters (IMHO). One steady follower of this forum may have noticed from time to time some posts concerning/discussing features that cannot not be applied to MoOde directly or could have unwanted repercussions; on such occasions either there are no replies or somebody offers an explanation. I retrospectively see now with regret that I should have stayed in the 'no reply' camp.
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#10
(02-07-2020, 11:27 AM)CallMeMike Wrote:
(02-07-2020, 10:36 AM)MichelGauss Wrote:
(02-04-2020, 06:58 AM)CallMeMike Wrote:
(02-03-2020, 08:32 PM)MichelGauss Wrote: ........snip................... My problem: I'm using a 5.1 Audio card (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi USB) and a corresponding speaker set. Installing it worked like a charm and out of the box, however, since the system is a 5.1 system, audio is only played on three speaker (left+right and bass) but I would love to have stereo sound automatically upmixed so that it plays on all 6 speakers at the same time.
It seems that there is no corresponding function in Moode audio, at least I haven't found one. A solution would be to manually edit the ALSA configuration, however I don't think that this is a good idea and would definitivly prefer to have an "integrated" solution. Any ideas? ...........snip...........................

Honestly I'm not sure that this is a 'problem' as there's no point of playing 'stereo sound' through a 5.1 speaker system without detracting from the quality of the sound... the 'timing and soundstage' mentioned by @vinn will be affected by the audio waves cancelling each other in the middle area of the speaker set-up. The sound would need to be 'edited' hence waving 'goodbye' to the conception of 'bitperfect playback'... IMHO

Thanks for telling me that my problem isn't a problem at all. Cool 

I appreciate the discussions in this forum, and I understand that some people don't want upmixing due to possible inferences etc. And I understand that from the point of view of some people doing something like upmixing is really really bad and should not be added to moode. Ok, discuss that. I can live with an answer like: "we won't include it, due to missunderstandings/complains for bad audio etc..." or not enough demand.

However, what really offended me here is the fact that I'm asking a questions on HOW TO do something. Telling me then, that I do not need to do something becasue you won't do it and that there are "no reasons to do it", is at least impolite. I asked for it, so you might assume that I have a reason for it. Especially in an area like audio and music that is highly subjective.  In fact, I had it already using it with the same hardware, same room, but different software.

Back to less emotional reasons, here is one of my reasons for upmixing: My daughter using the system to listen to stories, however she don't want to sit a specific area in the room. So when she's further away from the two "working" speakers, she needs the volume higher to be able to understand what the people are saying. However, that is not always compatible with the other people in the room....

I am sincerely sorry for causing offence to you...

As you have not explained why you would want to implement a method that may affect adversely the audio quality of the player I've elaborated on @vinnn advice with the intention of pointing out the negatives. The way I've formulated my post stayed away from 'emotional', hollow content, riding a high horse or belittling the other posters (IMHO). One steady follower of this forum may have noticed from time to time some posts concerning/discussing features that cannot not be applied to MoOde directly or could have unwanted repercussions; on such occasions either there are no replies or somebody offers an explanation. I retrospectively see now with regret that I should have stayed in the 'no reply' camp.

Apology accepted. I understand your motivation and I appreciate it.

I never perceived you as 'emotional', my answer was it (by intention because I've talked about emotions). I should have made this clearer in my post. I didn't wanted to just complain about your post, but rather get the discussion back to something more usefull, hence the going away from (my) emotional part to giving a reason for my request.

Also, you comment hasn't been perceived as hollow. Nor has it been perceived as riding a high horse or belittling, at least not by intenion. Your post has been perceived as impolite because it invalidated my opinion. Just imaging asking somebody for direction to a shopping mal, and getting the answer: "No, that's not a place you want to go".

Just to be clear, I didn't wrote my complain because I'm in raging anger. I wrote it because  a) your post anoyed me and in terms for my mental hygiene I chose to not accept this. b) giving feedback on how the post was received allows to learn from it (hopefully not to be silence, this was not my intenion) and c) encourage other to point out if their opinion was invalidated and not simply accepting it.

 
I've written now more on this topic than I intended to do. I would prefer to keep this thread more to the technical points and stop this discussion at this point since I don't have the feeling that anything should be added. However, if you feel that there had been missjudging or anything else, I'm happy to talk about this via PM's

Best,
Michael
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