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+--- Thread: Allo USBridge Signature (/showthread.php?tid=1704)
RE: Allo USBridge Signature and DSD blues - cofot28 - 07-21-2020
Hello!
Some months ago I discovered Moode Player and since then it became my main way to listen to music in combination with the Allo USBridge Signature/\Santi because of the unsurpassed SQ of this combination. Recently, I have linked Moode with foobar in my pc through the Upnp media renterer without any audible SQ loss. I am very excited with the result which combines SQ with the superior flexibility in terms of media data base management of foobar.
However, a last problem persist. My dac is the W4S Anniversary Edition. When I use dsd (dsf) files, in plain moode player mode (without foobar) they are transformed on the fly in flac 192. Neither Dop or DSD native is working at all. Moreover, it is rather unstable. In particular, when moving from a flac track to dsd sometimes there is just silence while there is indication that the track is playing... Even worse, when I play music though the foobar setting the dsd does not work at all. The issue is present even in the 6.7 update.
I find this really a pity because moode player/allo signiture is in my view a revolutionaly combination which makes hi-end accessible to all those that find it crazy to spend 4000+ for a streamer of comparable sq. I should add for your info that testing daphile player (in a pc setting with my dac) DSD works fine natively but the overall SQ is not as good.
Is there a hope that one day we will be offered an effective solution to this problem?
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - Tim Curtis - 07-21-2020
You will need to provide some debugging info in order to troubleshoot your issue.
Reboot then post the Moode log.
Code:
moodeutl -lAlso post the output from the command below
Code:
aplay -lRE: Allo USBridge Signature and DSD blues - TheOldPresbyope - 07-21-2020
(07-21-2020, 12:51 PM)cofot28 Wrote: Hello!
...
However, a last problem persist. My dac is the W4S Anniversary Edition. When I use dsd (dsf) files, in plain moode player mode (without foobar) they are transformed on the fly in flac 192. Neither Dop or DSD native is working at all. Moreover, it is rather unstable. In particular, when moving from a flac track to dsd sometimes there is just silence while there is indication that the track is playing... Even worse, when I play music though the foobar setting the dsd does not work at all. The issue is present even in the 6.7 update.
...
So we're being presented a problem in two parts.
1) "in plain moode player mode (without foobar) they [meaning dsf files] are transformed on the fly in flac 192"
Question- does your DAC declare to moOde that it is capable of playing DSD material? If it doesn't, then DSD material automatically gets converted to PCM. When you play .dsf files "in plain moode mode" what does the Audio information screen (m>Audio info) say about it?
Here, for example, is what it says about my Khadas Tone Board which is also a DSD-capable USB DAC. Note the list of formats.
Code:
AUDIO DEVICE
Device: USB audio device (Control)
Mixer name: Khadas Tone Control
Chip:
Interface: USB
Formats: S16_LE, S32_LE, SPECIAL, DSD_U32_BE
Platform: Pi-4B 2GB v1.12) "play[ing] music though the foobar setting the dsd does not work at all"
DSD is not a base component of FooBar2000. You didn't tell us anything about the DSD component(s) you used or about the Playback settings you chose. I have no idea how FooBar2000 can be coerced into streaming DSD material via UPnP protocol to a UPnP Media Renderer. How do you know it isn't converting it to PCM before streaming to the renderer? (Debugging this part of the issue would seem to be a subject more appropriate for a FooBar2000 forum. I'm no expert on FooBar2000 or on serving DSD material via the UPnP protocol so I have nothing more to contribute.)
As an aside, I am concerned about your expectations after reading your final statement that "DSD works fine natively but the overall SQ is not as good." "Natively" means DSD material is sent directly to the DAC without any pre-processing. I don't see how changing from one player to another is supposed to affect the sound quality.
Regards,
Kent
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - TheOldPresbyope - 07-21-2020
@cofot28
As a followup to my previous post, here's an example of the moOde Audio Info screen I captured while playing a DSD-encoded track from a DLNA/UPnP Media Server (minimserver) using mConnectLite as my UPnP Control Point.
Code:
Source: http://192.168.1.159:9790/minimserver/*/Music/DSD/NDSD012/12_Welcome-to-NativeDSD-Sampler_NativeDSD-Presents_NDSD012_2ch64.dsf
Encoded at: DSD64, 1 bit, 2.822 Mbps Stereo
Decoded to: DSD bitstream, 5.645 Mbps
Destination: Local
Output rate: DSD bitstream bit, 88.2 kHz, Stereo, 5.645 Mbps
DSP OPERATIONS
Volume ctl: Software (MPD 32-bit float with dither)
Resampling: off
Polarity inv: off
Crossfade: off
Crossfeed: off
Parametric EQ: off
Graphic EQ: off
Replaygain: off
Normalize vol: off
Chip options: None
AUDIO DEVICE
Device: USB audio device (Control)
Mixer name: Khadas Tone Control
Chip:
Interface: USB
Formats: S16_LE, S32_LE, SPECIAL, DSD_U32_BE
Platform: Pi-4B 2GB v1.1As you can see, it's DSD straight through to my DAC (which means the software volume control info is irrelevant because it's bypassed in this mode).
Regards,
Kent
RE: Allo USBridge Signature and DSD blues - MikeyFresh - 07-21-2020
(07-21-2020, 03:21 PM)TheOldPresbyope Wrote: 2) "play[ing] music though the foobar setting the dsd does not work at all"
DSD is not a base component of FooBar2000. You didn't tell us anything about the DSD component(s) you used or about the Playback settings you chose. I have no idea how FooBar2000 can be coerced into streaming DSD material via UPnP protocol to a UPnP Media Renderer. How do you know it isn't converting it to PCM before streaming to the renderer? (Debugging this part of the issue would seem to be a subject more appropriate for a FooBar2000 forum. I'm no expert on FooBar2000 or on serving DSD material via the UPnP protocol so I have nothing more to contribute.)
As an aside, I am concerned about your expectations after reading your final statement that "DSD works fine natively but the overall SQ is not as good." "Natively" means DSD material is sent directly to the DAC without any pre-processing. I don't see how changing from one player to another is supposed to affect the sound quality.
Regards,
Kent
As of a few years ago, Foobar required at least one if not two plugins and configuration of such before it would play DSD. It was a bit of a pain in the neck, or at least it was at that time using Windows 7, such that when I got a new Windows 10 machine I did not bother to reinstall Foobar. Great freeware, but annoying and too time consuming to figure out. My 2 cents - DSD over DLNA/UPnP did work, but there were a few hoops to jump through.
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - cofot28 - 07-21-2020
(07-21-2020, 01:09 PM)Tim Curtis Wrote: You will need to provide some debugging info in order to troubleshoot your issue.
Reboot then post the Moode log.
Code:moodeutl -l
Also post the output from the command below
Code:aplay -l
Hi Tim and Kent,
Thanks for the rapid response. Please find below the requested logs. Perchaps there are smarter ways to communicate the requested info but please note that I am not very familiar with linux and command lines in general.
As for the points made by Kent on foobar I understand that the use of UPnP may raise further compatibility issues related to foobar, so let's leave this for the moment. I should only add that my W4S dac shows in a front panel screen the codec of the track playing. Foobar (with the appropriate components) but also the pc versions of volumio and daphile (out of the box) "see" my dac and play dsf files (according to my dac indicator) natively and in a stable way. In the case of both Volumio (in its pi version) and Moode, dsf are seen in my dac as flac and sometimes they don't play at all. In addition, as I said before, dop does not work at all in these two pi players.
However, even with this problem sq is audibly better in Moode in the sense that there is more fine details and precision.
I will be very happy to hear that there is a way to correct this issue in my moode + W4S dac configuration.
Again thanks a lot for your excellent work,
pi@moode:~ $ sudo moodeutl -l
20200722 000722 worker: -- Start
20200722 000723 worker: Successfully daemonized
20200722 000723 worker: Integrity check (passed)
20200722 000723 worker: Session loaded
20200722 000723 worker: Debug logging (on)
20200722 000723 worker: Device raw: (0
ndallodigione|1:empty|2:empty|3:empty 20200722 000723 worker: Device i2s: (Allo DigiOne Signature)
20200722 000723 worker: Device mpd: (0:Allo DigiOne Signature)
20200722 000723 worker: Device ses: (0|Allo DigiOne Signature|Digital|none%)
20200722 000723 worker: ALSA volume (None)
20200722 000723 worker: -- System
20200722 000724 worker: Host (moode)
20200722 000724 worker: moOde (6.7.0 2020-07-19)
20200722 000724 worker: RaspiOS (10.4)
20200722 000724 worker: Kernel (5.4.51-v8+ #1325)
20200722 000724 worker: Platform (Pi-4B 4GB v1.1)
20200722 000724 worker: ARM arch (aarch64, 64-bit kernel)
20200722 000724 worker: MPD ver (0.21.24)
20200722 000724 worker: CPU gov (ondemand)
20200722 000724 worker: USB boot not available
20200722 000732 worker: File system expanded
20200722 000732 worker: HDMI port off
20200722 000733 worker: File check (OK)
20200722 000733 worker: -- Network
20200722 000733 worker: eth0 exists
20200722 000733 worker: IP addr (192.168.178.27)
20200722 000733 worker: Netmask (255.255.255.0)
20200722 000733 worker: Gateway (192.168.178.1)
20200722 000733 worker: Pri DNS (192.168.178.1)
20200722 000733 worker: Domain (fritz.box)
20200722 000733 worker: wlan0 does not exist
20200722 000733 worker: -- Audio
20200722 000733 worker: MPD conf updated
20200722 000733 worker: ALSA outputs unmuted
20200722 000733 worker: ALSA card number (0)
20200722 000733 worker: Audio output (Allo DigiOne Signature)
20200722 000733 worker: Audio formats (S16_LE, S24_LE)
20200722 000733 worker: ALSA mixer name (Digital)
20200722 000733 worker: MPD volume control (disabled)
20200722 000734 worker: Hdwr volume controller not detected
20200722 000734 worker: Reset renderer active flags
20200722 000734 worker: -- MPD
20200722 000734 worker: MPD started
20200722 000734 openMpdSocket(): connection failed (1)
20200722 000734 openMpdSocket(): errorno: 111, Connection refused
20200722 000734 worker: MPD accepting connections
20200722 000734 worker: Configure MPD outputs
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 1 ALSA default (on)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 2 ALSA crossfeed (off)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 3 ALSA parametric eq (off)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 4 ALSA graphic eq (off)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 5 ALSA polarity inversion (off)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 6 ALSA bluetooth (off)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD output 7 HTTP stream (off)
20200722 000734 worker: MPD crossfade (off)
20200722 000734 worker: -- Feature availability
20200722 000734 worker: Source select (available)
20200722 000734 worker: Source select (source: MPD)
20200722 000734 worker: Source select (output: Allo DigiOne Signature)
20200722 000734 worker: Bluetooth (available)
20200722 000734 worker: Airplay renderer (available)
20200722 000734 worker: Spotify renderer (available)
20200722 000734 worker: Squeezelite renderer (available)
20200722 000734 worker: UPnP renderer (available)
20200722 000734 worker: UPnP renderer (started)
20200722 000734 worker: DLNA server (available)
20200722 000734 worker: UPnP browser (available)
20200722 000734 worker: Audio scrobbler (available)
20200722 000734 worker: GPIO button handler (available)
20200722 000734 worker: -- Music sources
20200722 000734 worker: USB source (6C4B-0C6D)
20200722 000734 worker: USB source (USB DSD)
20200722 000734 worker: USB source (USB FLAC)
20200722 000734 worker: NAS and UPnP sources (none configured)
20200722 000734 worker: -- Miscellaneous
20200722 000734 worker: USB volume knob (Off)
20200722 000735 worker: LCD updater engine started
20200722 000735 worker: Shellinabox SSH started
20200722 000735 worker: USB auto-mounter (udisks-glue)
20200722 000735 worker: LED0 (Off)
20200722 000735 worker: LED1 (On)
20200722 000735 worker: Saved MPD vol level (0)
20200722 000735 worker: Preamp volume level (0)
20200722 000735 worker: MPD volume level (0) restored
20200722 000735 worker: ALSA volume level (None)
20200722 000735 worker: Auto-play (Off)
20200722 000735 worker: Maintenance interval (3 hrs)
20200722 000735 worker: Screen saver activation (Never)
20200722 000735 worker: Session permissions (OK)
20200722 000735 worker: Watchdog started
20200722 000735 worker: Ready
aplay -l
**** List of PLAYBACK Hardware Devices ****
card 0: sndallodigione [snd_allo_digione], device 0: Allo DigiOne HiFi wm8804-spdif-0 [Allo DigiOne HiFi wm8804-spdif-0]
Subdevices: 0/1
Subdevice #0: subdevice #0
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - Tim Curtis - 07-22-2020
The log shows a S/PDIF transport
20200722 000733 worker: Audio output (Allo DigiOne Signature)
20200722 000733 worker: Audio formats (S16_LE, S24_LE)
The only way DSD can be sent over a S/PDIF connection which maxes out at 24/192K is either via DoP which would be limited to DSD64 format which is sent at 176.4K or by DSD to PCM on-the fly conversion up to 192K rate.
If your DAC supports DoP over S/PDIF then in MPD Config set the option "DSD over PCM" to Yes. If it doesn't or you are not sure then it to No.
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - cofot28 - 07-22-2020
(07-22-2020, 02:33 AM)Tim Curtis Wrote: The log shows a S/PDIF transport
20200722 000733 worker: Audio output (Allo DigiOne Signature)
20200722 000733 worker: Audio formats (S16_LE, S24_LE)
The only way DSD can be sent over a S/PDIF connection which maxes out at 24/192K is either via DoP which would be limited to DSD64 format which is sent at 176.4K or by DSD to PCM on-the fly conversion up to 192K rate.
If your DAC supports DoP over S/PDIF then in MPD Config set the option "DSD over PCM" to Yes. If it doesn't or you are not sure then it to No.
Thank you Tim for this clear reply. I didn't know this S/PDF limitation which also explains why x86 based players based on USB connection do not face this issue. I think it's worth testing the usb path towards my DAC and evaluate its merits compared to Allo Signiture S/PDIF.
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - Pawelpipi - 08-15-2020
Hello allo USB Sig users!
Can you please tell me which version of moode audio you are currently using? I am still on moode audio ver 6.4.0 downloaded from allo. I tried to load newer version but had a big problem with configuring the digital output in audio options of moode ( I could not see the digital output option only HDMI). I just wanted to know is it only my problem that I can make moode 6.7 working with allo usbridge signature.
I have seen ver 6.5.2 and even 6.7. in this thread, setup for those went smoothly, or you had to do some tweeking?
Thank You, Pawel
RE: Allo USBridge Signature - Tim Curtis - 08-15-2020
No issues on my end with 6.7.1 + SIG and either an Allo Katana or Allo Revolution DAC.
What DAC are you using?