Composer list in library browser

[Tim Curtis]

A proposal that could work is the following. These would be columns on a "Classical" panel, obviously not for smartphone sized screens. What do you think?

PANEL COLUMNS

- Genre
-- Composer
--- Composition (use the existing AlbumArtist tag for this)
---- Performer
----- Album
------ Tracks

SEARCH BY

- composer
- composition
- genre
- performer
- album

The key is that the AlbumArtist tag would be used for Composition, AND there needs to be some way to provide a logical separation between Popular and Classical music collections since the tagging and structure are different even though the albums may all be part of a single physical collection :-O You don't want your Classical collection to be shown in the standard Library panel and vis versa, you don't want your Popular collection to be shown in the custom Classical panel.

Its an interesting challenge.

-Tim

[rhizomusicosmos]

Would the Genre tags be enough to provide that separation? Otherwise some way to parse the library import, e.g. a target directory could be ticked as "contains classical content" when adding it as an audio source. This would mean the user would need to keep all "classical" files in a separate folder or drive to other "popular" content. This is not so different to the "Movies" and "TV Shows" separation that Kodi uses in order to scrape appropriate metadata.

[Tim Curtis]

I think so. AFAIK Classical Genres are distinct from Popular Genres.

-Tiim

[imazed]

It’s probably not be the best precedent to create a new viewing style for one genre of music but what would your ideal library experience for your classical collection look like Tim (Barnes)? Maybe we could create something that worked for classical as well as more universally.

I am not sure that the following helps, but I know it would work for me if Moode simply searched all 21 of the mpd supported tags ignoring in which tag any of Beethoven, allegro, opus 80, Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Simon rattle etc were stored - moode would return what I was looking for.  Actually I use only eight of the supported tags, but see below.

I have a small collection of about 1,000 "Classical" tracks and I have not used that Genre in any of them, mine have things like symphony, ballet, concerto etc. some tracks are ripped from CD and some downloaded from  sites like Hyperion, Presto Classical and 7 Digital.  Regardless of what I think these companies use some tags differently from me and from each other.  The crucial point is that my tagging system suits my purposes and may not suite anyone else.  This of course is not relevant to how moode should search and present it's results

Within this thread there seems to be no real distinction between a Tag field and it's content.  So far as mpd is concerned any tag can have any UTF-8 string, which is why it is common practice with classical music to use the Artist tag for the composer.  Although there is a specific Composer tag hardly any players can search it.

If one accepts that all tagging systems are personal then searching all tags for a text string is the only solution to finding any piece of information for all users.  I need to point out that a similar problem exists outside of Classical music.  I think that Jeff Beck is a great guitarist, so on tracks where he is not the main artist I use the Performer tag and enter Jeff Beck guitarist.  This allows me to find (currently external to Moode) all the tracks on which he play and create a playlist.

From my perspective, how a user chooses to implement tagging should not have any bearing on the Moode search function.

And finally "Classical" music in this context is a red herring, there is nothing different about the methodology of tagging and retrieval of classical Music.  I, for one, like to know who is the composer when I listen to jazz, rock,  and blues, who the players are, what instruments they play etc.

[rhizomusicosmos]

And finally "Classical" music in this context is a red herring, there is nothing different about the methodology of tagging and retrieval of classical Music.  I, for one, like to know who is the composer when I listen to jazz, rock,  and blues, who the players are, what instruments they play etc.

While I agree with you in theory, the Composer-Performer dichotomy in "classical" music genres is of practical significance and not necessarily a red herring. It is an issue that has affected the arrangement of discs in most music stores -- usually by "composer" in the classical section and "artist" in the popular/jazz sections. This is simply the received nature of the classical music canon and industry. Old habits die hard.

I agree that a completely flexible tagging and search methodology is probably the holy grail of what we want. I am an "albums" rather than "tracks" type of listener: if I type "stravinsky boulez grammophon" into the search field, I want to be presented with all the albums I have of Stravinsky's music, conducted by Boulez on the Deustsche Grammophon label. This is my dream but so far it seems unattainable -- unless we incorporate Google-like search algorithms into MPD. Currently I rely heavily on the cover art to identify the correct album I want.

[Tim Curtis]

It’s probably not be the best precedent to create a new viewing style for one genre of music but what would your ideal library experience for your classical collection look like Tim (Barnes)? Maybe we could create something that worked for classical as well as more universally.

I am not sure that the following helps, but I know it would work for me if Moode simply searched all 21 of the mpd supported tags ignoring in which tag any of Beethoven, allegro, opus 80, Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Simon rattle etc were stored - moode would return what I was looking for.  Actually I use only eight of the supported tags, but see below.

I have a small collection of about 1,000 "Classical" tracks and I have not used that Genre in any of them, mine have things like symphony, ballet, concerto etc. some tracks are ripped from CD and some downloaded from  sites like Hyperion, Presto Classical and 7 Digital.  Regardless of what I think these companies use some tags differently from me and from each other.  The crucial point is that my tagging system suits my purposes and may not suite anyone else.  This of course is not relevant to how moode should search and present it's results

Within this thread there seems to be no real distinction between a Tag field and it's content.  So far as mpd is concerned any tag can have any UTF-8 string, which is why it is common practice with classical music to use the Artist tag for the composer.  Although there is a specific Composer tag hardly any players can search it.

If one accepts that all tagging systems are personal then searching all tags for a text string is the only solution to finding any piece of information for all users.  I need to point out that a similar problem exists outside of Classical music.  I think that Jeff Beck is a great guitarist, so on tracks where he is not the main artist I use the Performer tag and enter Jeff Beck guitarist.  This allows me to find (currently external to Moode) all the tracks on which he play and create a playlist.

From my perspective, how a user chooses to implement tagging should not have any bearing on the Moode search function.

And finally "Classical" music in this context is a red herring, there is nothing different about the methodology of tagging and retrieval of classical Music.  I, for one, like to know who is the composer when I listen to jazz, rock,  and blues, who the players are, what instruments they play etc.

The search feature on the Browse panel searches all tags for the entered string. 

Whats being proposed is to reflect the collection as a clickable hierarchy so that entering long text strings is rarely if ever needed. The collection has to be tagged a certain way but this is a one-time task with the payoff being super easy navigation through the collection.

PANEL COLUMNS (collection tags)

- Genre
-- Composer
--- Composition (use the existing AlbumArtist tag for this)
---- Performer
----- Album
------ Tracks

SEARCHABLE COLUMNS

- genre, composer, composition, performer, album

-Tim

[rhizomusicosmos]

A much improved Universal Search is planned for moOde 4.3. It will allow searching by any of the tags including Composer.

-Tim

Perhaps this will solve many of the search issues. Thanks, Tim.

[rhizomusicosmos]

Whats being proposed is to reflect the collection as a clickable hierarchy so that entering long text strings is rarely if ever needed. The collection has to be tagged a certain way but this is a one-time task with the payoff being super easy navigation through the collection.

. . .

SEARCHABLE COLUMNS

- genre, composer, composition, performer, album

I like this idea of drilling down to a more focused search, otherwise finding a specific album or track might require long text strings as you state.

[imazed]

It’s probably not be the best precedent to create a new viewing style for one genre of music but what would your ideal library experience for your classical collection look like Tim (Barnes)? Maybe we could create something that worked for classical as well as more universally.

I am not sure that the following helps, but I know it would work for me if Moode simply searched all 21 of the mpd supported tags ignoring in which tag any of Beethoven, allegro, opus 80, Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Simon rattle etc were stored - moode would return what I was looking for.  Actually I use only eight of the supported tags, but see below.

I have a small collection of about 1,000 "Classical" tracks and I have not used that Genre in any of them, mine have things like symphony, ballet, concerto etc. some tracks are ripped from CD and some downloaded from  sites like Hyperion, Presto Classical and 7 Digital.  Regardless of what I think these companies use some tags differently from me and from each other.  The crucial point is that my tagging system suits my purposes and may not suite anyone else.  This of course is not relevant to how moode should search and present it's results

Within this thread there seems to be no real distinction between a Tag field and it's content.  So far as mpd is concerned any tag can have any UTF-8 string, which is why it is common practice with classical music to use the Artist tag for the composer.  Although there is a specific Composer tag hardly any players can search it.

If one accepts that all tagging systems are personal then searching all tags for a text string is the only solution to finding any piece of information for all users.  I need to point out that a similar problem exists outside of Classical music.  I think that Jeff Beck is a great guitarist, so on tracks where he is not the main artist I use the Performer tag and enter Jeff Beck guitarist.  This allows me to find (currently external to Moode) all the tracks on which he play and create a playlist.

From my perspective, how a user chooses to implement tagging should not have any bearing on the Moode search function.

And finally "Classical" music in this context is a red herring, there is nothing different about the methodology of tagging and retrieval of classical Music.  I, for one, like to know who is the composer when I listen to jazz, rock,  and blues, who the players are, what instruments they play etc.

The search feature on the Browse panel searches all tags for the entered string. 

Whats being proposed is to reflect the collection as a clickable hierarchy so that entering long text strings is rarely if ever needed. The collection has to be tagged a certain way but this is a one-time task with the payoff being super easy navigation through the collection.

PANEL COLUMNS (collection tags)

- Genre
-- Composer
--- Composition (use the existing AlbumArtist tag for this)
---- Performer
----- Album
------ Tracks

SEARCHABLE COLUMNS

- genre, composer, composition, performer, album

-Tim

Tim,
Thanks for the clarification, sorry that I got the objective wrong. However I still do not understand the need for a hierarchical, clickable results list,

Take for example:

The third movement of Schubert's String Quartet No 14 in D minor also known as  'Death and the Maiden'  catalogue D810 which is a Scherzo with the instruction tp be played Allegro molto

A free text search across all mpd tags for a track which contained Schubert and Allegro would find it along with (in my case six other tracks) I can easily see the track I want to play.

If I follow the hierarchical route, I need to know what genre this is tagged.  I have two versions of that piece, one ripped from a CD which I tagged "Chamber" and one downloaded from a record company was tagged as "String Quartet" so entering Classical in the genre will produce a long list which doesn't include either track.  The situation is even worse with some Led Zeppelin tracks which can be tagged, Rock, Heavy Metal, or Blues.

If the first tag in a hierarchical system is incorrect then nothing below it will work.
In a free text search the hierarchy is thrown away and I can find the third movement of Schubert's Death and the Maiden in many different ways including for example Quartet.  It also removes any need to retag files to match a hierarchy structure.

If I can ignore hierarchy, leave Genre blank search for Schubert then obviously I have overcome my objection to the hierarchy.  But wait, many tracks do not have an entry in composer and Schubert is listed as Artist or only in the title such as Schubert: Death and the Maiden.  So that doesn't work either.

The underlying problem is that in the real world Tags are populated at the whim of the user or originator of the track. For a Tag oriented hierarchy it will always require that the tag contents to match some specific schema.

I suggest the best option is to use the approach used by many book catalogues First a free text search across all tags, followed by a search within results.  In this method Schubert followed by quartet will find my track just as surely as D minor followed by Schubert

I am not arguing for the sake of a discussion but want to avoid you spending time pursuing a path which will not work for everyone at all times.

Mike

[Tim Curtis]

My goal would be to have something thats useful for many people not something that works for everyone all the time cuz that almost always ends up being a Lowest Common Denominator solution. Anyway you can currently do search across all tags in the Browse panel so "Schubert Allegro" should work as you describe.

With a click schema any column can be used as the root same as existing Library panel. Each column would have a free text type-down search to help avoid long scrolling.

For example lets say I'm interested in seeing the list of performances of "Prelude and Fugue In C major, BWV 846". You could scroll or text search to it in the Compositions column.

The Performers column might list

Christopher Parkening
Friedrich Gulda
John Williams
Tzvi Erez
.
.

Something like that.

But maybe the task of re-tagging Classical tracks to match some proposed schema is too burdensome for most users and thus not worth the effort to develop the custom panel.

Not enough feedback at this point for sure.

-Tim